There is a group that is hoping to bring a petition to my provincial government to ask that IVF be government-funded. I joined a facebook group about it. I made it very clear on my wall when I joined that if you didn't agree, there was no need to join or comment. If you did agree, well, you could join. Or not. 100% totally up to you.
As a caveat: IVF will never help me, because I have a malformed uterus that would never support a pregnancy, as well as blocked tubes and PCOS. My only options for becoming a mother would be surrogacy or adoption, both of which are too costly for us to even consider. My heart breaks everytime I think of this, so maybe I'm a little over-sensitive.
I have a friend who lives in Australia (where, incidentally, from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong), IVF is funded by the government). She has always made it clear that she didn't want to have kids. I have many friends who are "childfree by choice" and I think that's a great choice to make - if you're not interested in having kids, don't have them.
She popped up on my messenger this morning, and this is the conversation that ensued. Whether you agree with me, or with her, or with no one at all... basically this conversation made me feel like shit.
Friend
me ask you something
Me
ok
Friend
now you know i love you right
Friend
but
you are an idiot lol
why should the govt pay for fertility treatment?
Me
gee thanks?
and
Why should they not?
Friend
splain in 100 words or more
Me
You first
Friend
ok - for one i is tax dollars - those dollars should go into schooling, funding for roads, funding for mental health, funding for childrens services, funding for health care etc - not to populate an already overpopulated world - but I am not a kid friendly person
so why should they fund it?
Me
I can see that point and I agree that tax dollars should go to those things.
And I ask you to see that there's another side as well
People are not going to decide, if they're infertile, to just not have kids. they're going to keep trying.
adoption isn't always a possibility
in most cases it's actually more expensive than fertility treatments
which are expensive
so
If the government were to subsidize, people wouldn't be implanting 5 or six embryos at a time because it's too expensive to have more than one treatment
Friend
ok so why not make adoption easier?
Me
I agree with you there
Friend
why not fight for that
Me
How do you know I'm not?
Friend
cause i havent seen an fb group for it
Me
aaah, well that explains everything. my entire life is on my fb wall after all.
Friend
duh
i dunno what i would do in your situation - i don't wanna have kids etc but atm i reckon that if i couldnt have kids I would just adopt it's that easy
Me
Hopefully adoption in Australia is easier/cheaper than in Canada
Friend
im moving to the uk lol
Me
There too then
Friend
go to the US - they seem to adopt everyone
Me
Heh. If only it were that easy.
Friend
cultural vacuum cleaners
Me
I'm never going to have kids, whether or not this goes through. It would still not be physically possible for me. Adoption is also not an option for us at this point because of the expense. The way that things are right now, IVF and adoption cost about the same (actually IVF can be
an average of $10000 per attempt, and adoption can be twice that depending on what route you go).
Maybe the government funding IVF would just make it so that it costs less, not that it's free. I don't know.
I do think that people should have the chance to try. It wouldn't be like, five hundred attempts all funded by the government, and thousands of octomoms running around willy nilly.
It would have to be be regulated - all gov't stuff is - two or three attempts, fewer embryos transferred, less chance of triplets/quads/quints etc., less necessity for tax dollars to pay for hospitalization.
Friend
so why not just ban it - it's creepy
no more doctors messing with nature
no more me having to pay for other peoples' choices
Me
That's not going to happen, and I don't see "it's creepy" as being a reason to ban something.
Like it or not, the Canadian public is already paying for it. People decide to do IVF but can only afford one round - so they have the doctor transfer more embryos because the more embryos in there the higher chance of getting pregnant. Then, because healthcare is gov't funded here, taxpayers are paying to support complicated pregnancies with multiple births. We're supporting putting these babies into intensive-care units at $5,000 a day for weeks and we are covering the health-care costs of babies born with disabilities because they were born early because they were one of three, four, five, six... from the time they're born through their entire lives. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be covered -but when you consider the avg. stay in the nicu for a preemie is two weeks, that's $70 000 per child.
Me
In Finland and the Netherlands they limit the number of embryos transferred, and studies have shown that that produces a healthier population and saves millions of dollars on healthcare in the long run. So the whole "tax dollars" thing doesn't really hold true.
Friend
why raise the population? I mean look - i also think we shouldnt give aid to foreign counries lol - i am a bit of a rebel
Me
Well, unless you're going to tell fertile people "Sorry, no kids for you either."
and if you are, good luck with that
Friend
yea well i have no prob with a 2 kid limit
that way you arent producing more than you are
if you want more - just adopt em!!! Simple
Me
So let people have their two children via IVF, or make adoption costs less prohibitive.
Okay, I'm not trying to cut this off but I have an appointment and I'm going to be late. Can we talk later?
She didn't answer, so I assumed she'd left the computer or something, and I left for my appointment. I left my messenger on, though, because I'm forgetful. When I got back, I saw that 15 minutes after my last message, she'd put this in:
Friend
imo if you cant concieve you werent meant to. your genes weren't meant to mix with the other person's genes and you should accept it not go fucking around creating frankenbabies and ruining the earth.
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Wow.... that frankenbabies comment was the worst. How dare infertiles want their genes contaminating the perfect gene pools of mother nature!
ReplyDeleteummm....wow... I don't think this person is a friend after that last statement. If anyone said that to me I think I would spontaneously combust......
ReplyDeleteWTF. Why are you friends with this bitch?? Even if she were talking to a woman with the fertility of a rabbit this would be heartless and ignorant. It scares me that there are people like this in the world! I vote that you immediately unfriend her, and maybe start a FB campaign against her!
ReplyDeleteCan I go to Australia just to beat the shit out of someone? That's a good reason, right?
ReplyDeleteShe seriously needs her ass kicked... Not only that, she insulted my country. As I am a proud Navy wife, she gets two ass kickings.
Block her.
OKAY SERIOUSLY!!! I KNOW ITS RUDE TO TYPE IN CAPS BUT THIS IS HOW ANGRY I AM RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CONTINUED TO TALK TO HER, BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE THROWN MY COMPUTER ACROSS THE ROOM ONCE SHE GOT TO "Just adopt, it's that easy"!!!
ReplyDeleteThis girl sounds like an ignorant idiot, first of all. Secondly, for you to so calmly provide the logical reasons as to why IVF funding makes sense --and her to not understand, shows that she wasn't even paying attention and not even trying to understand, because she doesn't give a rat's ass. DEFRIEND!
OMG, I am an infertile with twins via IVF and will continue to pay off the 40,000 dollars of debt that we aquired to conceive these babies for years to come.. not to mention the medical expenses that were incurred when they were born at 34 weeks... AND I have great insurance, but am still paying out the arse! (what I am getting at is, I agree with you.)
ReplyDeleteThis conversation you had with this person really struck a cord with me because I almost always read and nod along, but don't really comment. I can't let this one go!
The arrogance that this person exudes is really profound. I really hope that 'what goes around, comes around' and that karma is going to slap this bitch, so that you don't have to!
WOW. That person is NOT a friend. How incredibly rude and insensitive on so many levels.
ReplyDeleteWow Wow Wow! That friend is SERIOUSLY upside down! I almost feel sorry for her because she is so downright uninformed, unsympathetic, and IGNORANT!! I had to go through IVF not because mine and my husband's genes "couldn't mix." It was because my body wasn't ovulating!! I have PLENTY of eggs (trust me on that one....they retrieved 50!) And, 38 of them were mature, 32 fertilized! So, don't tell me that mine and my husband's genes can't mix! Together, we made some beautiful embryos, who will grow to be perfect babies!! Had IVF not be available to give us a little help in getting those eggs out, and getting them fertilized, we'd never be able to have our own children! IVF is a wonderful thing for people like me who just need a little "boost" in getting things moving.
ReplyDeletePlease tell me you de-friended!!?? OH my dear...and thank you for standing up for the community even if you yourself are not a candidate for IVF. You are a beautiful person.
Most. assinine. comments. EVER.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, why even participate in this coversation? And what makes mental health, children's health, and general healthcare MORE important than infertility coverage?
WTF are you kidding me!? i have no idea who this "friend" is but thats the most arrogant, naieve, un educated thing i have heard
ReplyDeleteso sorry for you to have to hear that &*^%
Wow, it was bad enough and then I read that last line and the blood drained out of my face an I almost puked. It amazes me how some people can have so little ability to think about other people's feelings and thoughts. Sure, you think there are too many people and you don't want kids -- but could you POSSIBLY think of other people and how they feel about it?
ReplyDeleteThere are so many things to comment on in this, but I'm just going to focus on one. "lol" is NOT F*CKING PUNCTUATION! And it certainly doesn't absolve you from responsibility for saying shitty, thoughtless, badly though through crap.
ReplyDeleteSo sorry you had to go through that conversation. I can't believe how calm you were through it.
^&%^$##$%^& *pissed off*
ReplyDeleteThe whole conversation has me fuming.
I dunno what to say, I'm seething. But isn't this the general attitude? "Adopt - its that easy" or "the world is already overpopulated, so why add to that?".
Why is it always the infertile's duty to carry the burden or the world? And that line about "no more me having to pay for other peoples' choices" - well its not my choice that I can't have children, or that my embryos won't stick, or that my husband doesn't have sperm.
Sorry you had to endure this horrible person (and have to listen to that sad and unfeeling last line).
She is seriously the most ignorant self absorbed bitch. That is the worst thing I've read in a long time
ReplyDeleteI am in shock with her comments. I think I would remove her from my FB.
ReplyDeleteWell she just about summed up every single assinine, ignorant, heartless comment a fertile could make there didn't she?
ReplyDeleteJust out of curiousity, what province are you in? As you probably know, in August 2010 the Quebec gov't started funding IVF and I am one of the very first people who was able to benefit from this new law! In the months and years leading up to the law coming into effect discussion boards on the media articles were FLOODED with these exact comments...and the gov't (and us infertiles) gave all the arguments you have very intelligently outlined to your friend. Unfortunately it's never enough to change the point of view of people like this. If you live in Canada you are always paying taxes to help the health of people who have cancer from years of smoking or have liver damage from alcoholism...it's part of our health system...fairness for all. If you don't like it, LEAVE THE FUCKING COUNTRY!!!
BTW if you have a link to it, I'd love to sign you fb petition :)
O_O HOLY CRAP, I'm sorry, but the outlook that your "friend" has is just ignorant, hurtful and naive. God forbid she ever has to deal with the pain of infertility.
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry you had to read that last comment from her, and overall endure the entire horrific conversation.
F*** her.
ReplyDeleteI could say so many things about this, but will stick with one:
ReplyDeleteWhat she has said here just validates every thought I've ever had about people who don't want children. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THEM.
Wow. Just wow. What irritates me is that she has no compassion for beliefs other than her own! Nobody wants the same thing!
ReplyDeleteIs she a Nazi? Seriously. Why don't we just have perfect babies from gene pools that are supposed to mingle, and limit 2 per family to avoid over-population. While we're at it, why don't we banish people who don't want kids since they won't be contributing to the perfect world.
Her logic is so skewed. Don't even start with the 'meant to have children' BS. There are so many undeserving mothers out there, yet they have a superior gene pool than me? I think not!
OMG. First of all I apologise that she is Australian. Second of all she is no friend. In Australia our medicare system subsidises the cost of IVF but is now capped so each successive go in a financial year you don't get as much back. We are extremely fortunate. For example this cycle i am on is $6400 which includes everything + $250 excess for hospital visit and $1300 for the FS expenses. Of this I get $4500 back from the cycle fees, the $250 is claimable in my end of year tax and I get about $900 back from the FS fees. All up out of pocket about $3000 - the next cycle it will be about $3500 so on and so forth.
ReplyDeleteIt is almost impossible to adopt in Australia. Impossible. Domestic adoption is very very low and International Adoption can take anywhere from 4-7years and you have to be under about 40 (i think). She has no idea.
And if my tax dollars are going towards funding for children, maternity leave, schools, subsidised child care, family tax a & b etc etc and I am paying for it well where does that leave me? Paying for a whole lot of things I have no access to or benefit to? That doesn't make sense?
Finally she is a nasty piece of work she openly acknowledges she doesn't want children and that is fine but then to judge someone elses choice is just ridiculous. And over population? In Australia we had to increase our immigration because our population growth was going backwards and we had an aging population. Last year was the first year in 15 that we actually had an increase. So she doesn't know what she is talking about.
People like that are just mean, stupid and ill informed.
Thank you for the supportive comments on this post.
ReplyDeleteI want you to know that as soon as I saw her "frankenbaby" comment, I realized that there was no talking to her, and gave up the ghost of our (over ten year) "friendship". She was immedately defriended on facebook, blocked on Twitter, and removed from my chat programs.
She has always been someone who prides herself on "telling it like it is". I've come to realize that most people who say that are just taking pride in being assholes and aren't open to intelligent discourse.
Louise
jeezlouise.net
(PS - I don't blog a whole lot about my infertility... there's not very much I can do about it. But if you visit my blog you'll see adorable pictures of my dogs!)
It's good to know that the reason I have failed to conceive is bc my husband's genes and mine would produce some genetic mutant frankenbaby. Guess nature did a bang-up job when it banned us from reproducing and allowed a 22 year old meth addict that I know (fresh from jail!) to get pregnant with her 4th baby. I mean, who cares if the gov't took her first three, nature knows best!
ReplyDeleteHow much would gov't funded ivf raise individual taxes? I'd love to see some numbers! Bet it's not that much really.
Thank you for being a calm and very logical voice for the ALI community. And wow, I'm so sorry that you have someone like this in your life. If she can't respect your innate desire to be a parent, something that is a huge part of you, then she clearly can't respect you as a whole and you deserve better than that.
W. O. W. (this is all I can type without going through the entire list of explicit words...)
ReplyDeleteShe sounds like she is the type of person that is against everything she isn't interested in and I don't know how you were able to continue talking to her rationally. I would have lost my mind. I'm glad you removed her from your life. I can get that maybe she doesn't understand but comments like that show she doesn't even care and that she doesn't get it. She deserves a STFU for sure!
Holy crap! What a bitch!!! All I can say is that I hope that whatever her BIG dream is (obviously not kids) I hope its really hard, even impossible, for her to achieve.... so that she has to feel like she's trying to move mountains and then I bet she changes her tune real fast.
ReplyDeleteThats just my 2 cents tho....
Your "friend" sounds beastly, but sorry, tax dollars SHOULDN'T fund IVF.
ReplyDeleteShe's awful. Her comments tell me that she understand or empathize with your situation. No friend should be so horribly nasty and unthinking. Give her the boot, or give her email to all of US! We will give her a learning! Sorry, I'm not normally this viscious, but you should not have to tolerate being spoken to like that. :(
ReplyDeleteWhat a BITCH. Good fricking lord. It's a good thing this heifer doesn't want to have kids. We don't need HER genes to infect this world any more than it already has.
ReplyDeleteWhat an ignorant piece of crap.
Thank goodness she doesn't want to breed, there are already enough ignoramii on the planet. When she dies, there will be one less.
ReplyDeleteWhat a toxic bitch, I'm pleased you defriended her.
Bloody hell - seriously, I have had enough of the Australians that think like this (I am Australian). She obviously doesn't know what she is talking about at all - Chon's comments covered our system very succinctly and yes, absolutely impossible to adopt. I also have a malformed uterus but was lucky enough to carry a pregnancy to term via a donor egg from Thailand. Why did I have to go there - because our government has legistlated against paying a donor so there is very little voluntary donation. In addition, she is an obvious clown because it is also against the law to transfer more than two embryo's and even then, getting a clinic to transfer 2 is difficult. Previously, the government subsidised a lot more of each cycle as the 'safety net' limit was way lower than it is now - previous out of pocket expenses were around $1500 and now unfortunately, it has put the benefits of IVF out of the realm of possibility for many people - I know that there is a 5 year wait on most public programs.
ReplyDeleteWhat this clown does not realise is that the world health organisation recognises infertility as a disease. If she is a smoker, I am sure that she won't mind that my (and my son's) tax dollars are spent on her lung disease later down the track. Or if she is overweight, or if she has a stroke, or a heart attack.
It is also true that many if not most people who do IVF, also pay for private health insurance (and in our case the highest coverage so we could get some minute help for IVF) in order for all of the hospital expenses to be covered. I would love to know whether she pays for private health or is she a burden on the public health system?
Sorry about the long comment but I did some campaigning to stop the reduction of the government funding when it was a bill and honestly, the comments that I read from people just like this piece of work still has me spitting. I was hoping that our new female Prime Minister might like to reverse the decision but sadly that has not been the case.
I am glad you have defriended her, she is a monster.
I hope that you have some success in petitioning your government to help fund IVF.
Frankenbabies?? Really, bitch? Even though this "friend" doesn't want kids, I wouldn't want her reproducing anyway to spread her "Nasty ignorant bitch" genes to ruin the earth! How can people be so heartless?
ReplyDeleteHow awful.... she has no idea and clearly doesn't have a loving bone in her body - lucky she doesn't want to be a mother b/c she probably couldn't manage the intense positive and loving emotion. Sorry that you had to cop these comments from her :( xo
ReplyDeleteWhere is this Facebook group? People are so rude! Hang tough babe and keep fighting!!!!
ReplyDeleteHoly fuck, this is so awful it makes me want to punch someone.
ReplyDeleteI don't even know what to say about this. What an absolutely ignorant person, I am continually shocked by how unsympathetic and cruel can be when it comes to infertility. I live in Ontario as well, and it's crazy that just one province over IVF is partially funded.
ReplyDeleteI am sure you have looked into this, or have had others mention it, but you could always look into childrens aid adoption if that is a route you would consider. It can be a long process, but I do have a friend who just adopted a 9 month old and it is practically free, compared to other adoption methods.
Screw her. I'm thankful she's not reproducing to grace the world with other ignorant spawn. I am so sorry that your "friend" did this so deliberately and for the hurt that I'm sure you feel. What's wrong with people?
ReplyDeleteFertiles will never understand, even if they try to. People who have no desire to listen to/care about infertile couples are why there aren't mandated programs for fertility treatments. It's absolutely disgusting!
ReplyDeleteWe all know that if the situation were turned on these rude fertiles who don't believe infertility is real or that it's a sign we weren't supposed to have kids then everything would be completely different... I wouldn't wish infertility on anyone, but sometimes I wish they could just get a taste of what we go through.
Adoption isn't as easy as everyone thinks it is. My husband and I have been TTC for 3 years and we've just realized adoption is a good choice for us... It's expensive and takes years! In the US we get a tax deduction that just might cover the expense fully, but it takes a long time to go through the process. Then you have the possibility of a birthmom (if that route is taken) changing her mind and possibly even ripping the baby from you after you paid her thousands of dollars for support while she was pregnant... There are a lot of risks that of course are worth the benefits, but it's not like we just go to Babies R Us, pick out a baby, charge it to our credit card, and then leave.
I don't live in Ontario, and we have looked into adoption here in PEI - basically there are NO children in our province up for adoption (the majority of adoptions that happen here are international). The social worker suggested that we foster but I can't bear the thought of falling in love with a child only to have him/her leave our lives. We are still looking into our options, though.
ReplyDeleteFor the person who said "Your "friend" sounds beastly, but sorry, tax dollars SHOULDN'T fund IVF." I'm just curious - can you give any reasons why?
Louise
jeezlouise.net
That. Wow. FUCK. I have no words. That is not a friend. That isn't even really a compassionate human being. WTF?!?! My blood is boiling over here. $*@#)$*)@$&#*(
ReplyDeleteOMG. I feel like vomiting after reading that. It breaks my heart that someone would say something so hurtful. Thats like telling someone who lost their Mother that she wasn't meant to be alive anyways - deal with it, wimp.
ReplyDeleteWhat a horrible person.
Please tell me you never spoke to her again. Or, that she got knocked up and had to give her kid up for adoption. (I would say worse, but I don't think I could wish a dead baby on...anyone. Especially the baby. Metaphors aside)
ReplyDeleteIn arguments like this (mostly having to do with same-sex partners wanting kids), I tend to play the "fit/unfit parent" model for those too dense to understand the emotional part of not being able to fulfill an instinctive natural survival process. Depending on the density of the person, the argument has a wide spectrum of responses, but centers around this point:
"Parents who struggle through IVF and surrogates and the adoption nightmare are the parents who are going to do the same thing - anything it takes - to protect and raise their children, should they be so fortunate. Funding this will not increase the population one bit. Think of all the 'accidental' pregnancies you know of. Hopefully, they all happened to people who were well-prepared and eager. But in reality, that doesn't always happen. Why do they get to have all the accidents they want, but not others?"
Clearly that is a little blunt, but sometimes it takes a lot to get through to some people.